http://tugan-tel.at.tt/forum Э tuрan tel Tatar tele turэnda sдxifд YBS Ezlдw Soсрэlar Дрzдlдr Tцrkemnдr Terkдlь Юдxesnдmд Юдxsi xatlanэ tikюer subTrail Kerь -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yaramay! Bдxдslдr -> Рцmьmi bдxдs Uzрan cep :: Kilдse cep Yazрan Xдbдr Qunaq Qaldэrdэ: 04 May 2004 11:45 Baюlэq: yaramay! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "tatarca e" awazI ocon "e" xarfini qullanrga yaramay! ["tatarca e"=xazrgi kirillitsa yazuwdagi "e" xarfI] ["tatarca e"=yigit, cp(cip,cep) digandagi awaz ] awazlarnN [kilp cIguw, evolutsiasI] tarixI yagIndan qaraganda. "e" xarfI "urIs e" awazI ocon gna qullanlrga tiyS. awazlarnN tarixI bolay: "tatarca 'apipa' digandagi 'a' " awazI kuca "nicka i"ga; "uguz tllarndagi nicka 'a' " awazI kuca "nicka i"ga; "khazrgi turuk yazuwndagI 'e'" awazI kuca "nicka i"ga; "nicka i" iysa uz ciratInda "tatarca e"ga kuca; buw kucuS uguz tllarndan qpcaq tllarIna kuckanda bar; tagIn buw [yaki 'bun'] kucuS tatar adabiy tlindan qaysIdr dialektqa (qasym soylaSina bugay) kuckanda bar; masalan: turukca "er", "et", "beSiktaS" tatarca "ir", "it", "biSktaS"qa kuca; turukca "it" tatarca "tatarca e"+"t"ga kuca; turuklar "er","et" diyp yazgannI "urIs e" blan uquw/aNlaw durus, conki: bz, tatarlar, urIs/yevropa suzlarini tatarcalaStrp aytkanda "urIs e" awazI "nicka i"ga kuca; masalan: "elektron" suzini "iliktron" diyp aytabz; ["iliktr"+"urIs o"+"n" diyp] "ekskavator" suzini "ikskavatIr" diyp aytabz; "ved' " suzu "bit" ka kuckan; "bilet" suzini "bilit" diyp aytalar; [min uzum "urIs e" awazIni tatarca sOylaSkanda da qullanam] "velosiped" suzini "vilasapit" diyp aytabz; [siped -> s+"tatarca nicka a"+pit] ["tatarca 'apipa' digandagi 'a' " awazI="tatarca nicka a"awazI =] [="almat[Sahar] digandagi nicka'a' awazI"] Sunga kura: tatar kSisi turuk tekstInI uqIganda "er","et"ni tabigi rawSta "ir","it" diyp aNlayacaq.[agar min aytkanca "e" xarfI "urIs e" awazI ocon gna qullanlsa] agar bz "e" xarfInI "tatar e" ocon qullansaq, turuk kSisi tatarca tekstnI uqIganda butalacaq(sataSacaq, adaSacaq): tatarca "et" digan yazuwni ("sobaka, dog" digan suz) Ьznca "myaso, meat" diyp aNlayacaq. ham (wa) tatar kSisi turukca tekstnI uqIganda butalacaq(sataSacaq, adaSacaq): turukca "et" digan yazuwni ("myaso, meat"digan suz) Uznca "sobaka, dog"diyp aNlayacaq. agar bz "e" xarfInI "tatar e" ocon qullansaq, (masalan xazrgi kirill alfavitI Sulay iytA (irtA)) butun yevropa tllArndAgi yazma-yazuwlarnI uqIganda "e"xarfInI "tatarca e" iytp uqIrga kirAk tUgllikini istA(xatrda) totarga turI kilAcAk: misal ucun: "telefon","telephone","explorer","internet","mercedes","pentium", hem(wa) baSqa(butAn) barlIq(boton) sUzlAr. alarnI ((un/on)larnI) uqIganda tatar kSisi "urIs e"awazI yaki(ya/yaiysa) "nicka i"awazI qullana, amma "tatar e"awazIni qullanmay, yagni "t"+"tatar e"+"l"+"tatar e"+"fon" diyp AytmAy. "t"+"urIs e"+"l"+"urIs e"+"fon" diyp AytA, wa(ham) "t"+"nicka i"+"l"+"nicka i"+"fon"="tilifon" diyp AytA. Цskд men Юamil Эdдrдзe Terkдlь: 01 May 2003 09:49 Xдbдr: 373 Qaydan: Qazan Qaldэrdэ: 04 May 2004 19:54 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- tatarnэс hдm tцrekneс ber-bersen yazuda aсlawlarэ - ikenзe знratta berenзedдn tatarnэс ьze yazрannэс дytkдne belдn kileюьe. bu yaqtan xдzerge latнn дlifbasэ bik дybдt. Awrupa sьzlдre dд ikenзe знratta. Alarnэ hдrkem ьzeзд sцyli ala, berese Awrupзaraq, ikenзese urэsзaraq, qalрanэ tцrekздrдk. Дlbдttд, xдzerge дlifbanэс awaz sistemэn saqlap, qayber awazlarnэс xдreflдren alэюtэrsaq, ul monnan da uсaylэ, mantнqlэ bulэrнэ, umlaut (noqta/qoyroqlэ xдref) sanэ da kinдt kimerie, uрэz tellдre yazuэna yaqэnlaюэ bulэrнэ. Lдkin bez beraz soсрa qaldэq ta юдpneс yaxюэsэna рэna цlgerdek. waqэt kьrsдter, nise iс дybдt bulэr _________________ Nдrsд sine alрa alэp bara? Uylap qara, uylap qara (Э tuрa-an tel!) Nдrsд bezgд yдrdдm itд? Д? (Э_ ma~matu~ur tel) © Barda RAP cэrзэlarэ Цskд men al Beri Terkдlь: 30 Apr 2003 23:36 Xдbдr: 702 Qaydan: Cir цste Qaldэrdэ: 05 May 2004 01:09 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Дye, [э] awazэnэс yomюaq tцren yazuda bilgelдw цзen «e» xдrefen qullanu yaxюэ fiker bulmadэ, anэ «п» itep yasнsэ ide. Alay baюqa Tцrki xalэqlarрa da uqэrрa uсaylэraq, uqэtunэ da beraz ciсelдytд, mantнqlэraq ta, yдрni ul alay iс dцrese bulэr ide. Дmma… Дmma bezneс дlifbabэz rдsmi iз inde. Qanun-standartnэ bozu da yaxюэ tьgel, tormэюta uсaysэzlэqlarnэ tudэra. Bu mдs'дlдne xдzer зiюep bulmasdэr inde. Baюqa Tцrkilдrgд uqэ ciсelrдk bulsэn dip kitapxдnдbezdд юiрer belдn bitlдrdд «Tцrki» tцymдse bar, ul e–›п wд д–›e xдref almaюtэrularnэ yasн. Awrup sьzlдre цзen Frans «й» xдrefen qullanэrрa bula, ul qalэn suzэq bulэp зэрa inde: antйnnar, sнstйm… Дye, Awrup sьzlдre niзek kenд bozmнlar, iс дkдmдte ul urэslar kebek, aldan kilgдn tartэqnэ yomэюartэp, yomюaq [e] arqэlэ дytь. s.u. “qunaq” Aqtanэю-Ufa yaqlarэnnan tьgel me? _________________ Cir tetrдtkдn Tatar irlдre, Kemgд qaldэrdэрэz illдrne?! Цskд men Юamil Эdдrдзe Terkдlь: 01 May 2003 09:49 Xдbдr: 373 Qaydan: Qazan Qaldэrdэ: 05 May 2004 12:08 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "e" awazэ "i" awazэnnan 3 tapqэr yэюraq oзrн. "п" xдrefen "i" awazэ цзen qullanasэ ide, юulay bulsa _________________ Nдrsд sine alрa alэp bara? Uylap qara, uylap qara (Э tuрa-an tel!) Nдrsд bezgд yдrdдm itд? Д? (Э_ ma~matu~ur tel) © Barda RAP cэrзэlarэ Цskд men AZ Terkдlь: 05 May 2004 03:24 Xдbдr: 10 Qaldэrdэ: 06 May 2004 03:29 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMHO kнrнll "е" -ni latэnda "i" etip cazsaсэz oquwрa qolaylэ bolar edi, "e" -ni naрэz" "e"-ge qaldэrэp. Sosэn "i" дripэ qaрazрa basqanda ciсiзke (narrow) bolэp qaрaz зэрэnэn azaytadэ рoy. Al, cumsaq/qattэ diftongtэ Пп / Нн etip cazuрa da boladэ, birtalay Нн etip te boladэ. Tьrki tilderindegi cazuwэna unification kerek dep esepteymin _________________ Turkic writing requires unification Цskд men al Beri Terkдlь: 30 Apr 2003 23:36 Xдbдr: 702 Qaydan: Cir цste Qaldэrdэ: 06 May 2004 06:45 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AZ yaza: IMHO kнrнll "е" -ni latэnda "i" etip cazsaсэz oquwрa qolaylэ bolar edi «e»nэ «i» itep bezgд bulmas, зцnki ul ike ayэrэm awaz, alarnэ ayэru mik mцxim. Yд isд aю it'tдn peюkдn tьgel, et'tдn bulэp зэрar Andн sьzlдr bik kьp. Bu mдs'дlдne ikenзe yaqtan qarasaq, [п] awazэn «e» itep yazu anэ «i» belдn butamasqa yдrdдm itд. it – a meat et – a dog Ber yaqtan [п] awazэn tup-turэ «п» itep yazasэ ide, ikenзe yaqtan «e» itep yazu qanunda berketelgдn… _________________ Cir tetrдtkдn Tatar irlдre, Kemgд qaldэrdэрэz illдrne?! Цskд men Юamil Эdдrдзe Terkдlь: 01 May 2003 09:49 Xдbдr: 373 Qaydan: Qazan Qaldэrdэ: 06 May 2004 09:05 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [font=courier new] aдbcзdefgрhэнijklmnсoцpqrsюtuьvwxyz aebĵcdifgрhoýyjklmnсoipqrsюtuьvwxjz[/font] 9 xдref umlautnэс 6sэ qaldэ, hдm alar зaрэюtэrmaзa sirдk awazlarрa tцюд 9 xerif umlautnoс 6so qaldo, hem alar caрoюtormaca syrek awazlarрa tiюe _________________ Nдrsд sine alрa alэp bara? Uylap qara, uylap qara (Э tuрa-an tel!) Nдrsд bezgд yдrdдm itд? Д? (Э_ ma~matu~ur tel) © Barda RAP cэrзэlarэ Цskд men al Beri Terkдlь: 30 Apr 2003 23:36 Xдbдr: 702 Qaydan: Cir цste Qaldэrdэ: 06 May 2004 10:31 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Юamil, bik yэraq kitteс inde _________________ Cir tetrдtkдn Tatar irlдre, Kemgд qaldэrdэрэz illдrne?! Цskд men Qunaq Qaldэrdэ: 06 May 2004 15:57 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ikenзe yaqtan «e» itep yazu qanunda berketelgдn… amma yaсa alfavit qullanэlэюqa krmдdi iз дligд - mдktдp dдrslklдri, gдcitlдr ul alfavitqa kьзmдdi, bastэrэla baюlamadэ. s.u. “qunaq” Aqtanэю-Ufa yaqlarэnnan tьgel me? "yaramay" diyp yazрanda "ma" kьrnp tora. kьz aldэma kitrдm: mдktдptд tatar tili dдrsindд morfologik analiz, sьz tцzlюinрд analiz, sьz цstndд morfemalarnэ, affikslarnэ kьrsдtьwзi cдyдlдr; taрэn: tatar tl-in-ni цyrдnьwзi tlдsд-km (~hдr km) kьpmidr waqttan "mэy" / "mi"("m"+"tatar e"+"y" yдki "mi" diyp uqэla(дytlд)) quюэmзasэnэс "ma"/"mд" hдm "y" quюmзalarэ iykдnini(юunlardan xasil buluwэnэ) aсlap ala (blд, "aзэю" yasэy). "may"/"mдy" юaqtэy kiс taralрan (+baюqort tlndд), ilik [zamanda], xazrgi orfografiya qaрidдlдri [qatрэylэq blдn] mдktдp sistemasэ artqlэ ta'sir iytp real' sцylдm tlinрд ьzgдrю krtkдngд зaqlэ(qдdдr, юayэ, tikli) ul taрэn da kiсrдk taralрan bulрan. birinзil / ikinзil (qaysэ ilikrдk) buluw yaрэndan qaraрanda дlbдttд "may/mдy" "dialekt" diyp ataluрa qaraрanda "дdдbiy" diyp ataluwрa layэq. "may/mдy" diyp yazuw rцxsдt itlrgд tiyю, yaрni tэyэlrрa tiyю tьgl. рomьmдn, "дdдbiy tl" orfografiyд qaрidдlдri bir qдdдr irkinlik birrgд tiyю. [/img] Цskд men al Beri Terkдlь: 30 Apr 2003 23:36 Xдbдr: 702 Qaydan: Cir цste Qaldэrdэ: 06 May 2004 19:45 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Qunaq yaza: Quote: ikenзe yaqtan «e» itep yazu qanunda berketelgдn… amma yaсa alfavit qullanэlэюqa krmдdi iз дligд - mдktдp dдrslklдri, gдcitlдr ul alfavitqa kьзmдdi, bastэrэla baюlamadэ. Perewпzde Tatarзada meрlьmet cнэla baюladэ indп. Niюlersпс indп, kьp waqэtnэ buюqa uzdэrdэq… Bu sexife aзэluэ da soсрa qaldэ axrэsэ… Minde bu mes'elege cawap yuq. Soс bulэp kьrпne niюleptпr… Yuрisп e–›п wд д-›e almaюtэru noqtalэ xerпfler sanэn kьpke kimпte, hem baюqa Tцrkilerge de uqэrрa ciспlrek ite. s.u. itьw –› itь (u/ь artэnnan W yazэlmн) дdдbiy –› дdдbi (i/н artэnnan Y yazэlmн) Qunaq yaza: рomьmдn, "дdдbiy tl" orfografiyд qaрidдlдri bir qдdдr irkinlik birrgд tiyю Min moсa qarюэ tьgel, hдm “iske” dip bilgelдngдn sьzlдrne/quюэmtalarnэ kire qaytartэrрa kirдk dip uylнm. Telebez kьp рasэrlar buyэ ьzgдrelmi yattэ, hдm bermдlle nindider tile keюe alarnэ “iske” dip sanarрa quюtэ, imeю ul “iske Tatarзa”, wд юunduq telebezne «bit/д/tдk» sэman sasэ sьzlдr belдn tutэrdэ, monэsэ inde “zaman Tatarзasэ”. Зэn дytkдndд miсa sovet зorэnda yazэlрan дsдrlдrne uqэrрa awэr (X.Taqtaю, Д.Yeniki), дllд nindi botqa tel belдn yazэlрan iз alar, “cцmlд sayэn” sasэ sьz quюэp, anэsэz дlbдttд bulmasнэ. Qaрнda qэsalar kiсдytьenд qaytsaq, miсa -нэ/-iп quюэmtanэ “rдsmilдюterдse” kilд, Qazan-artэ Tatarlarэ юulay sцylдюд. Tuqay anэ belдn yazdэ, minemзд ul дdдbi teldд sцylдюte _________________ Cir tetrдtkдn Tatar irlдre, Kemgд qaldэrdэрэz illдrne?! Цskд men Qunaq Qaldэrdэ: 14 May 2004 14:25 Baюlэq: Re: yaramay! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "iliktron" diyp aytabz; "ikskavatIr" diyp aytabz; "bilit" diyp aytalar; "tilifon", "internet", "pentium" - buw suzlarni aytkanda "nicka i" awazI qullanlmay, balki "qatI i" qullanIla, qay waqtta gna "nicka i" awazI kuzatla. Sulay uq buw suzlardagi "tartq" awazlarnN da qatI variantlarI qullanIla. borIngI torki "runik" yazuwda "tartq" awazlarnN nicka ham qaln variantlarI bulgan. "qatI i"ga tagn misallar: "kit"-kit balIgI (okeandagI zur "imzuci" xaywan, "balIq"); "kitap" diyp aytkanda da "i" - qatI; "bit" - informatsia kUlAmini UlcAw brAmligi; "rim" - rim SAhAri, urIs tlindAn krgan AytlS; "maSina"; "miNa", "siNa" - "min","sin"+"ga" Sulay AytlA; "rimma"-ism; "video". gomuman, "qatI i" cit tl suzlari[n](uzlastrlmaganlari[n])da kUp: masalan, kit(balIq),bit(maglumat ul-w br-gi),rim(Sahar),rimma(ism), vinni(puh), robin(gud),video- urIs tilindan (OnnN aSa) krgAnlar; kitap-garap tlindan; hAm, AlbAttA, urIs tili sUzlArinda:"ris"(dOgi),"igrat'",ham baSqa urs tili suzlari.(qaybr kSilar "tatarca" soylaskanda urs(rus) suzlarn bik kup qullanalar, "tatarca" normal' sOylaSuwcilar iysa urs tilinda bik yaxSI sOylaSa aluw xalinga kilA alalar, yaki sOylaSa alalar.) "qatI i"-"nicka i" mAgnA ayIra ala: "nicka i"li sUzlar: "bit"- bit almasI, yaNaq, yOz, "litso","face"; "kit!"-figil: "uyti, uxodit'", "go" ,"go away",kitp barmaq, yiraqlaSmaq. tagn br narsa: "miNa", "kitap" suzlarinda "nicka i" da AytilA. Цskд men al Beri Terkдlь: 30 Apr 2003 23:36 Xдbдr: 702 Qaydan: Cir цste Qaldэrdэ: 14 May 2004 19:54 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [iliktron], [minitr], [ikskavatr], [tiatr], [vidio], [radio] itep uqэmaw цзen «йlйktron, ministйr, йkskavator, thйatйr, vнdйo, radнo» itep yazarрa kirдk, зцnki Tatar tele цзen «e» xдrefe hдrxдldд kirдk, [п] awazэ цзen me, yд isд [д] цзen me. Hдm qalэn alэnmalarda «н» qullanэrрa bula: maюнna, bнt… (min xдzer ьk alay yazam) s.u. alэnmalarda butalmaw цзen, alarnэ Tцrki sьzlдr belдn almaюtэrэp beterдse _________________ Cir tetrдtkдn Tatar irlдre, Kemgд qaldэrdэрэz illдrne?! Цskд men qdb Qunaq Qaldэrdэ: 18 Dek 2004 13:10 Baюlэq: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >[iliktron], [minitr], [ikskavatr], [tiatr], [vidio], [radio] itep uqэmaw цзen ni ocon "uqэmaw цзen"? tatarlaStriyq, Uzibzca Aytiyik. >«йlйktron, ministйr, йkskavator, thйatйr, vнdйo, radнo» itep yazarрa kirдk, зцnki >Tatar tele цзen «e» xдrefe hдrxдldд kirдk, [п] awazэ цзen me, yд isд [д] цзen me. «e» xдrfini [п] awazэ (yigit, kiSi, blm digandagi) цзen qullanrga yaramay. "yaramay!" temasinga min yazGan xat: http://qdb.narod.ru/tya_ie.djvu. Цskд men Soсрэ xдbдrlдrne kьrsдt: bцtenesen1 kцnlek1 atnalэq2 atnalэq1 aylэq3 aylэq6 aylэq1 yэllэq iskesennдn baюlapyaсasэnnan baюlap Bдxдslдr -> Рцmьmi bдxдs Waqэt quюaрэ: GMT +3 1. bit (barэsэ: 1) Эsem Bдxдskд: [ saylнsэ ] Юaw-юu aralaюu----------------Tatar poзmaрэTaюqa basэlmaрan uy-fikerMдdдniдt«Tatar Dцnyasэ»TatNйt mдs'дlдlдre Telebez turэnda----------------Рцmьmi bдxдsSьzleklдr Tel wд Sanaq----------------Sдxifд ostasэSanaqnэ tatarlaюtэru «Azatlэq.org» sдxifдse----------------Mдqдlдlдr turэnda uylarRadнo eюlдw buyэnзa tдqdimnдr «Э tuрan tel» sдxifдse----------------Bдxдslek turэndaKitapxanдneс qunaq-kitabэ«Bezneс Tarнx» qunaq-kitabэ Yaсa cep aзalasэс Xдbдrgд cawap birдlдseс Xдbдrne tцzдtдlmiseс Xдbдrne salalmнsэс Soraюtэruda tawэю birдlmiseс Google'da kitapxдnд